narutofandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Zetsu
Separation I think after the latest chapter we should discuss the separation of the article (to Black Zetsu and White Zetsu) again. Black Zetsu is revealed to be completely different essence than White Zetsu, he is Madara's clone created via Onmyōton while White Zetsu is Hashirama's clone created via Mokuton. They have different personalities and origins, their only common thing is ability to merge into one body.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC) :If Madara never separated them, why should we? --Cerez365™ (talk) 15:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC) @Cerez, the white was there before the black has been created, thus we should do some kind of separation in their article at least, like Kamui has (Kakashi/Obito)--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC) :Ukon was born before Sakon, yet their articles aren't separated are they? I'm against separating their articles because the two operate as a single being most of the time. The information in the article isn't overbearing or confusing so I don't see the need to separate the information. Also Faust-RSI, all the clones were created using Yin-Yang Release from what I understand: one from the statue the other from the clone, it's just that White Zetsu was created first, there is no difference between the two. I really don't see one good reason to separate the articles, simply because they can split themselves. In that case we should create one for Mū's "clone".--Cerez365™ (talk) 16:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC) Well, meant separate background/personality/abilities/other stuff sections, not 2 articles for them--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, October 17, 2012 (UTC) Since they work as a single entity most of the time, it might be best to keep the sections on their background and role in the story as a single section. The same goes for their appearance, since splitting them would basically mean describing a lot of the same things twice. Their abilities, however, may be a different story. Other than Mayfly, which all of their kind can use, the two haven't really displayed any shared abilities. Their abilities section could be split into two the way most articles are split into sections for nature transformation, kekkei genkai, etc.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC) :Would this work for a reorganised version of the abilities section?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC) I think that's how it should be, but also a separate background since their "birth" differ--Elveonora (talk) 23:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC) 1. Yes, Madara never separated them, though this is irrelevant, all of the most important, final arc, they were separated. 2. Ukon and Sakon never acted as separate entities, yet BZ and WZ did. Also, their significance is incomparable with that of Zetsu. 3. It was never mentioned WZ was created using Yin-Yang Release, moreover, it is strongly implied it has Yang release only, as seen when Zetsus abnormally react to Naruto's chakra. Moreover, WZ is Hashi's clone, while BZ is basically Madara, I don't know why you ignore that. And this is HUGE difference. I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Muu's jutsu.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC) :In the most recent chapter, Madara told Obito that the beings created through Yin-Yang Release could be used as his pawns, implying that it was used to create the white clones as well. As for completely splitting the article, it could lead to problems on other pages; mentions of Zetsu acting as a single entity on other pages would have to link to one side or the other. Black Zetsu's creation can be explained within a single sentence and he remained merged with White Zetsu for a while after that, so their background section works fine as it is, although the part about Black Zetsu's creation is currently out of order. The abilities section could definitely be separated though, as previously mentioned.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, October 18, 2012 (UTC) * Sakon and Ukon have acted independently, they've split up as well. * How much significance a character holds for you is insignificant to the discussion, and not a valid reason. We're supposed to be neutral. * The Zetsu clones were all created from Yin-Yang Release. They react poorly to Naruto full-on Yang-natured chakra because of their genetic makeup. They're vegetation, the Yang-natured chakra is simply activating them. What is happening to them is no different than Danzō's arm turning into a tree. ** I'm not ignoring anything. You seem however to be willing to just look past the fact that they're a single entity, that just happen to be able to split and act independently to split their articles for no good reason.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC) :* They have, for one battle, hundreds chapter ago. Zetsus did this recently in the most important chapters of this manga. Sakon's and Ukon's significance is almost zero, BZ and WZ have connections to all the most important events of this manga. So no, it is not my personal opinion in any way, it is what this manga shows us thus your comment is no relevant and makes no sense. *My mistake, they did, though one clearly represents Uchiha and Yin while other Senju and Yang. Though this is not the point. The point is that WZ is Hashirama's clone while BZ is not. *They are not single entity in any way, did you miss the part where WZ was existing for-hell-knows-how-long before BZ was even born? Being able to merge don't make them one. There are more characters that are able to merge, but only Sakon and Ukon share the article, even bijuus have their own pages.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:14, October 22, 2012 (UTC) : I'm also for a split in the articles. As far as Zetsu is concerned, Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were created for two completely different purposes using two completely different methods, Black Zetsu has been shown to do things that White Zetsu cannot, they aren't as dependent of each other as we originally thought either. They have different personalities, backgrounds, that kind of thing. Comparing them to Sakon and Ukon is not even applicable. Both White and Black Zetsu have spent a considerable amount of time separate (all the time before Black Zetsu was born, and during most of this Shinobi World War arc). While Sakon and Ukon were shown to separate, we don't know anything about their pasts, or what they're like when they are apart for significant amounts of time. Furthermore, we don't know if they have the exact same abilities, or have different abilities than each other. We do know all these things about the two Zetsu. If, at some point, we learn all of this about Sakon and Ukon, I'd be for splitting them too, but in this case, I think a split is necessary. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC) ::They've spent more chronological time together, but as far as on-panel, shown time goes, they haven't separated for that much time, and they didn't do much by themselves after splitting. And even considering the things that they did do after splitting, they spend much more time staying put than actually doing stuff. Omnibender - Talk - 21:02, October 27, 2012 (UTC) ::: Regardless, we have more than enough material to classify them as separate characters. I find it extremely unnecessary to lump them all together when we have so much unique information on their individual selves. They aren't even collectively referred to as "Zetsu" anymore. They haven't been since earlier in Shippuden. They've been referred to as Black Zetsu and White Zetsu for quite some time. I think we have enough to warrant two articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC) ::::Edit: Also, should we decide to split them, we could make "Zetsu" a disambiguation to link to all the different Zetsu incarnations, since the term "Zetsu" now applies to Black and White Zetsu, Spiral Zetsu, the White Zetsu Army, and the like. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:19, October 27, 2012 (UTC) There is no need to split Zetsu. Up until this current arc, there was only Zetsu, with Black and White personality. Them separating into two physical forms. As mentioned before, that would be like separating Sakon and Ukon which would result in two articles with the exact same information for the majority of the page.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 21:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC) : No, Ultimate, there would not. For Sakon and Ukon, that might be the case, but regarding the two Zetsu, there are ample amounts of information amount both to give them completely unique articles. Black and White Zetsu, as a single entity, didn't make too many appearances before this arc. Their plot sections prior to the Five Kage Summit arc is mediocre at best. Its not like they made a ton of appearances as one being. I'm sorry, but, given the unique nature of their creation, the fact that they were created separately, have different personalities, different purposes, and even, in some cases, different abilities, makes it perfectly legitimate. White Zetsu is even dead, at this point. So you're telling me we're gonna keep adding stuff for just Black Zetsu now to this article? Makes no sense. For the last two or three arcs they haven't been merged. At all. There is no legitimate reason to keep them together. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:23, October 28, 2012 (UTC) Separation is the most logical thing to do, I don't see why some people disagree.--Elveonora (talk) 01:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC) : I have created two sandboxes; Black Zetsu and White Zetsu. That should serve to demonstrate how different each article can be. It has different information specific to that Zetsu, illustrates their ability differences, even their plot section focuses solely on their actions when they act alone. The only thing that is exactly the same on both articles is the "Creation and Conception" and the "Trivia". Even the quotes are different. I believe this proves we can make them unique articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 04:08, October 28, 2012 (UTC) :: Good work, I'm all for making those sandbox articles into the ground for the separate BZ and WZ articles. The only arguments opponents have all sound like "I'm too lazy to do this, this is too much work, let's better do nothing", sorry, but this is how it looks like Faust-RSI (talk) 11:31, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::: I'm gonna wait for one more person to chime in and then we'll go from there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::::I still don't see the benefit from splitting the article. Even the databook didn't bother splitting the profile between WZ and BZ. I don't see the cost/benefit in doing the split. Besides, changing all the links to BZ and WZ isn't something that can simply be done with a bot. The article as is is perfectly capable of informing everything there is to know about Zetsu, B&W. Omnibender - Talk - 18:09, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::::: The databooks have nothing to do with this. When the last databook came out, Zetsu had not been split up for two arcs. You can bet the next databook will have them separated, as it has now been revealed that they have different origins and different purposes. As the sandboxes I created show, they even have different abilities and Black Zetsu is more of a fighter, while White Zetsu, as Obito mentioned, is not a "front line" fighter. They're different in numerous ways. They even have different personalities. As I said before, if Sakon and Ukon had displayed this many differences and this much independence from one another, as Black and White Zetsu have, I'd be asking for them to split too. If its really just the links you're worried about, there are editors that are more than willing to do that. But really, I and others see it as a necessity. They're too different to keep on the same article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:16, October 28, 2012 (UTC) :There is no benefit in splitting the pages. You say it is nothing like Sakon and Ukon, but fail to say how it is so. For the overwhelming majority of the series there has only been Zetsu. Hell, even splitting they've done nothing that warrants the articles being split. There is nothing that requires this page to be split.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::Hell, even your proposal pages feed into my argument. Both the articles are practically the same.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:30, October 28, 2012 (UTC) : I told you how it was different from Sakon and Ukon. Sakon and Ukon appeared for less than half an arc. There is no information on their background, they have the exact same abilities and even similar personalities. Not the case here with these two. Funny, because if you look up, you'll see these explanations two or three times. Secondly, yes there is everything to requite these pages being split. They have different personalities, different origins, different purposes, different abilities, and besides that, the only argument we seem to be getting from you, just like with the Obito and Tobi split, is "its too much work". Also, looking back over my proposals, I see numerous differences, particularly in the background and abilities sections, as well as towards the arcs in which they become more prominent as separate characters. They're two completely different people. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::And their articles will be get this 80% the same (yes I pulled a number out my bum). Look at the current article and the two proposals you wrote up. At most the only noticeable difference is they are separate (obviously) and alot of uses of "both Zetsu". There is no logical reason to split a page if the information is just go in to be repeated in another with 1 or 2 words changed in a attempt to make it different. There is nothing wrong with the current set up, and splitting them will cause more problems than solve because there was nothing to solve.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC) * logic full of win, White&Black Zetsu have a single common article, while "Spiral Zetsu" has his own. We either include all "Zetsus" in one or keep each separated if different enough--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC) : Completely agreed. Sorry, Ultimate, but your logic makes zero sense. There is ample material to make two separate articles and there should be two separate articles. They are two unique characters and, especially now, with White Zetsu dead and their inability to rejoin, its important that we emphasize the differences in their characters. My sandboxes were just examples of how it could be done. Once we actually get to doing it, the final result will be much different than those sandboxes. Unless you can give us all a reason other than "too much work" or Sakon and Ukon, which aren't even comparable cases, then you really have no basis for stopping the split of the article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::Spiral Zetsu for most of the series didn't exist, and other than a common origin, shares nothing with the B&W Zetsu. Omnibender - Talk - 19:21, October 28, 2012 (UTC) :::Omni is correct on Spiral Zetsu. Save common origin, nothing is similar and his page ends where it does. No matter how you say it, the information will be the same, if only different because it was worded differently to make it different. You can ignore it all you want, but to split a page into two when most of the information will be similar is pointless.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 19:29, October 28, 2012 (UTC) TheUltimate3, you are completely unfair to the sandbox articles. They are only examples, and they were created by one man, he did it all alone. You can't demand perfection from them, the good content will be created by the community. Developing those pages will obviously drop your "80%" down. But they will never be 100% different, though only few articles here have 100% unique content, you can't avoid interdependencies among different characters.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:03, October 29, 2012 (UTC) I don't really think they require seperate articles as most of the information is just going to be repeated.— I can't believe we're still on this though. Browsing through the sandboxes I see no difference between the two articles. The people for the split are basing it on the simple premises that "they were created separately/differently" which I think is utter rubbish. If he was created with his own body and not poured into White Zetsu, you guys would have a more substantial argument from my perspective. Have White and Black Zetsu even done enough apart to be considered separate entities? ...no they have not: we'd have one paragraph saying they did x and then everything will be the same- that is not ample amount of information to split an article. The hassle of having to do that and then simply transcribing the information to another article is ludicrous.--Cerez365™ (talk) 12:25, October 29, 2012 (UTC) Wow, I cannot believe i am just now getting to this argument. Had I read it at the time of Cerez's last edit, i'm not sure what side i'd be on. BUT NOW!? It's totally obvious that they are clearly two separate entities. That is undeniable for sure. Yes, Madara created them at different times(blah,blah,blah), but since B.Zetsu left the W.Zetsu clone which he was simply "occupying", that is the icing on the cake. Im not sure that anyone can reasonably argue against splitting the article between white and black Zetsu anymore. They may have debuted together and as the same person, but clearly, that is off. All in favor, say "I". KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 23:58, December 31, 2013 (UTC) After more than a year, I am still in favour of separation. I was too tired to continue this pointless argument few people were interested in. But everything that happened in the manga during this time has only strengthened my point.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:51, January 1, 2014 (UTC) :Still unnecessary. The fact that he reverted to his normal globule mass changes nothing in the slightest in my opinion. Zetsu has been presented as a single entity with two different consciousnesses (or more accurately as we know two entities sharing one body) however, nothing has changed. The information is still not enough to stand on its own as two separate articles without copying and pasting the same thing in 2 different articles. I could understand if the article was causing mass confusion or something, but it isn't. Again I will ask: if Kishimoto never presented them as 2 individuals, why should we? --Cerez365™ (talk) 16:21, January 1, 2014 (UTC) ::Except he did and whatever amount of denial can't change that. Of course he wasn't presented like this from the beginning - FOR THE STORY PURPOSE. It's not so difficult to understand. But as the story had progressed the things changed and we should do accordingly. Faust-RSI (talk) 06:11, January 2, 2014 (UTC) :::You've still to provide a valid reason for separating the articles except that the two halves can act independently. I think I'll stop beating this dead discussion now, because it's highly unlikely that the wikia will move to split the article at this point in time.--Cerez365™ (talk) 13:36, January 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::Well, who knows. But the entire point of the argument is that they are not two halves, but two enitrely different entities. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 16:01, January 2, 2014 (UTC) :::::And now they even got separate names, lol Faust-RSI (talk) 07:54, January 15, 2014 (UTC) White Zetsu Does anyone know if the chapter where "White Zetsu" was "killed" by Sasuke was fixed in the volume releases? Because if it wasn't, and the Zetsu killed by Sasuke didn't get the flytraps, then we should really consider it wasn't the original killed by Sasuke.--RexGodwin (talk) 01:07, December 30, 2013 (UTC) Clones said he was the original, or rather questioned Sasuke about it, something he didn't deny, so that's that--Elveonora (talk) 01:09, December 30, 2013 (UTC) When White Zetsu was first created his flytraps were on the other side and when Black Zetsu was imbued into him he had no flytraps at all. The clone killed at the summit also had them even though the other clones we've seen didn't. Seems the original and his clones can just grow and retract them at will.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:59, December 30, 2013 (UTC) The Army clone specualted that, but it was never confirmed. And No the one at the Summit was the Original, he never died. Karin noticed he was still alive after. The real WZ always has had venus flytrap parts.--RexGodwin (talk) 06:59, December 30, 2013 (UTC) The original is dead, there is no doubt. If he was alive, there would be no need to substitute him with one of the Army clones in the latest chapters. Kishi just made another mistake with those flytraps, though it would be useful to see volume version. I agree that Original always had them, and it wasn't a clone that was killed during the summit, it was original and he was alive - chapter 464, page 11. Faust-RSI (talk) 07:21, December 30, 2013 (UTC) So you meant to tell me, that someone can still be alive after he gets killed without even dying? Makes sense--Elveonora (talk) 13:19, December 30, 2013 (UTC) :Yup, that's Zetsu for you.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:34, December 30, 2013 (UTC) i dont understand zetsu is dead he has many copies and they are al the same becuase they are copies and just like the original so teh discusion is not neededIloveinoxxx (talk) 18:19, January 1, 2014 (UTC) :Zetsu could very well live on in somewhere else he can create spores and he escaped under ground so he didn't truly die, he still lived on Just like orochimaru lived on through cursed seals. --Mr Easter (talk) 11:46, January 2, 2014 (UTC) Name Just wondering, when was Zetsu's name first revealed? like what chapter/databook/other piece of info did we first learn of his name?--RexGodwin (talk) 11:23, January 18, 2014 (UTC) :In the book of Sha. Seelentau 愛議 13:56, January 18, 2014 (UTC) uh im pretty sure Zetsu has been named in the manga long before that databook came out--RexGodwin (talk) 15:34, January 18, 2014 (UTC) :Oh, manga... I don't know. Seelentau 愛議 15:58, January 18, 2014 (UTC) ::I guess first time will be chapter 255, page 3, said by Pain.--LeafShinobi (talk) 16:59, January 18, 2014 (UTC) awesome, thanks. i was just thinking we should use whatever first time his name is revealed as the source at the top, instead.--RexGodwin (talk) 09:52, January 19, 2014 (UTC) First Artificial Human This article and several others currently state that White Zetsu was the first of all the artificial humans. This is presumably because the clones killed by Sasuke called him their original, but those were the clones created by Obito who share his image, we don't really know whether White Zetsu was the first of the clones created by Madara, do we?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:43, January 19, 2014 (UTC) :In my opinion it's some kind of fallacy. The original is Hash Plant Clone, all WZ are his/its children/fruits. How can they be clones of a single WZ? They weren't created from him but with him--Elveonora (talk) 01:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC) ::Spore Technique sort of creates clones, and Zetsu does have a cloning technique known as Parasite Clone. WZ may not do it often, but he does have the ability to create clones of himself independently from the Hashirama clone. Omnibender - Talk - 01:34, January 20, 2014 (UTC) Because SZ; one of the first clones, was called by Zetsu himself his clone. So WZ predated even Spiral Zetsu. Plus the army clones aren't even direct clones of Zetsu; they were cultivated by Obito. Plus obviously he is the first, being the main WZ in the series. it wouldn't make much sense if he wasn't the original.--RexGodwin (talk) 02:33, January 20, 2014 (UTC) :Black Zetsu also referred to White Zetsu as being his clone, that's just what they all call each other. Not saying there's evidence against him being the original, just asking if there's solid evidence for it. The whole Zetsu issue and the different types of clones and such has become such a confusing mess.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:07, January 20, 2014 (UTC) #They call each other "clones", simple as that. Because it is what they are. It doesn't mean they are implying they are literally clones of one specific Zetsu (White Zetsu in this case); #The whole issue is based on what clones created by Obito said. It shouldn't be applied to first artificial humans, moreover, this case perfectly illustrates us Kishi is being very liberal with the terminology he uses, as they are also not literal clones of WZ, but his copies; #The clones created by Obito at least look alike. But Madara's Zetsus are mostly different - there are half-formed (WZ), normally formed, even weird spirally formed Zetsus. How can they be called "clones"?? It's obvious they were forming separately around the same time. We even have pictures during Obito's flashback BEFORE White Zetsu was even introduced with several clones forming on the "tree"; #Conclusion - it is wrong to call WZ the first one.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:12, January 20, 2014 (UTC) Zetsu did call the others clones of himself or so to speak. Why would it be impossible that he was in fact the first clone created from the tree? --Cerez365™ (talk) 15:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC) :Not impossible, but wouldn't the others hanging there with him be his brothers instead of clones? Those who have an exact appearance and personality as him are clones, so maybe he served as a template for the army due to having least imperfections or something, but Spiral Zetsu is far from his clone--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, January 20, 2014 (UTC) ::Agreed. Even if Zetsu army soldiers are technically his copies and not clones in the exact meaning of this word (in Narutoverse terms), they still called White Zetsu their original and in the latest chapters admitted to have the same personality. Spiral Zetsu was different both appearance-wise and personality-wise, so it's safe to assume other different looking ones weren't his clones but rather his "brothers" (I wonder what happened to them?).Faust-RSI (talk) 16:38, January 20, 2014 (UTC) :::Perhaps were too weak to survive and died prematurely. Madara after all called it a failed experiment--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::Yeah, but we saw at least two more of them that were perfectly fine. Also, WZ said during Obito's "escape" that more of them are spying in many places.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:58, January 21, 2014 (UTC) Except White Zetsu literally says to Obito that SZ is basically one of hisItalic text clones.--RexGodwin (talk) 20:52, January 20, 2014 (UTC) :I'm aware of that, but as I've already said, Kishi is very liberal with the term "clone". Also, the pronouns in Japanese are often ambiguous, if present at all. We need Japanese expert to know for sure.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:58, January 21, 2014 (UTC)